drews
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why is it that f***ng difficult to get an unpaid internship in any finance related firm?
I'll get my physics PhD in a couple of months and was learning financial math and C++ for the past year and a half. A year ago I didn't know anybody who works in finance but I met several people on Wil***t and on our New York gathering. I wanted to distinguish myself somehow from the bunch of other quantitative PhDs who will start looking for job this fall by getting a summer internship (this by the way was an advice of a guy with a screen name NorthernJohn whose posts were extremely useful at least for me, does anybody know why he stopped posting?) .
I was willing to work for free just to get a couple of shitty lines on my CV. Recently I got an internship at some sort of mutual fund and they pay me $20/hr (which is pretty generous since I was willing to work for free). I hope it will change but if not what should I put on my resume? I mean I didn’t work on anything just yet. Of course I'll come up with something but isn't it all weird?!
I don't understand it, why nobody wanted a free work force?! I mean I don't have any work experince and my C++ is not that strong, but I just needed to build up my resume (to be able to put at least something finance related). I would work hard even if not paid. What's wrong with those people?!
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chiral3
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| The job market is great now and it is only going to get better. Fuck working for free. Why would you work for free when you could make over 100k your first year, nevermind bonus? People in finance will be dubious if you say you will work for free. Besides, how much could you possibly learn? I wouldn't want that person because 1) why should I take time to train them for another employer 2) I am not going to share secrets 3) they can't contribute in three months, it takes too long to learn. That is why Master of Finance students alphabetized my files my first year working. Go make some money, that is my advice. maybe someone else will agree with me. |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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Baltazar
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That's interesting Chiral,
i'm more or less in the same position than drews but i don't want to do an intership (have done 18 month so far, enough).
I ask a friend of a friend in some derivative desk of a big french bank. basically the answer was: no work for junior, labour market low, if you want I may can get you an internship.
what do you guys think of it: BS?, french job market very low compared to uk? (he told me to go to uk)? my resume is crap ? (no you can't answer that, you haven't read it yet )
B. |
Qui fait le malin tombe dans le ravin |
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chiral3
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| I should be more specific: The NY market is getting real good, esp for experienced people, but it is good none-the-less.... |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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drews
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I hope it's true that NYC job market is getting better, I mean I won't look for job anywhere else anyway. But it's always tough for entry level positions. My coworker who graduated from Masters in Fin Math program at Baruch College this year told me that only 4 of her 20+ classmates found jobs. I mean I understand that Baruch College is not Columbia or NYU, but my another friend who just graduated from Columbia Fin Math was looking for job since she entered the program a year ago and all she found was an internship at a big i-bank (but she needed a work visa), she also told me that just a few (4 or 5) of her (I guess more than 60) classmates found jobs before graduation.
As to the unpaid internship I still don't understand why not take a person who agrees to work for free, I mean if you like him you'll offer him an employment afterwards, you risk absolutely nothing and may save $20-30K or whatever in HH fees |
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Baltazar
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I don't know:
they may think that if your unpaid, you may say, i don't want to do this, i don't want to do that.
if your paid you shut up an do what you're told.
taking an internhip uses time for the guys that has to brief you, explain things, look after your work, eventually correct it.
depending on how bright you are it may take time before your added value is positive (independently of the salary)
so i can understand that they don't want to take you (nothing personal of course) |
Qui fait le malin tombe dans le ravin |
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kr
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there is basically only one philosophy that is understood on the street:
incentive-driven
Maybe it seems strange to you, but it's better to appear expensive. That's also why you would avoid guys who would even consider hiring you for free - because they themselves would be the cheap types and hence wouldn't appear expensive.
Maybe the tough thing to reconcile is that one can be a humble luxury good. Think about it. |
my bank got pwnd |
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Drews,
One of the reasons -other than what kr and C3 said- why it is hard to get an entry level position is that many things in banks are critical, they just cannot afford to f**k up. If you save $30K by using an unpaid intern but he makes a mistake and it costs you a couple zillions, what do you think you look like?
If all you're looking for is work for free on a project to see a piece of the real action and have something to talk about on your resume, maybe some forum members could come up with some ideas? What are you interested in? We all have things we'd like to do but lack time for, no?
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Truck driver, Toxic Waste Capital Management LLC. Trash is our business. |
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drews
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If all you're looking for is work for free on a project to see a piece of the real action and have something to talk about on your resume, maybe some forum members could come up with some ideas?
That's exactly what I was looking for, to work on some real project to be able to improve my fin. math. and C++ and be able to talk about something during the interview and (WHICH WAS THE MAIN REASON) to put something finance related on my CV (othewise it looks very funny it's just physics publications). I got this internship but I've done absolutely nothing in 2 weeks I'm here
What are you interested in?
I'm interested in getting a front or middle office quant position with i-bank or hedge fund. It doesn't really matter for me which portion of my math skills I'll use for this 1st job and I can't specify in detail right now what exactly do I want to work on in the future, I need to get some exposure to the industry to decide. I know basic fin math: Hull, Baxter & Rennie and basic C++ though I've never programmed for industrial projects |
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DW
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Following on from what NT said I wondered if the members of the phorum could make some suggestions on the following:
Basically I see a lot of junior candidates who are very smart but not "match fit" for interviews, more often than not the areas they need to brush up on are twofold: 1) Fundamental/Basic maths (as outlined in my interview prep guide) and 2) C++. In terms of improving C++, reading a book is simply not enough as there are things you only get better at or get a real understanding of if you are applying the theory and creating an application in C++. I would greatly appreciate it if people here could suggest a selection of mini projects/applications that entry level candidates could attempt/build in order to work on their C++. Ideally something that may take between a couple of weeks to a month to put together (assuming little previous use of the language) and would involve a candidate having to cover a broad spectum of OO concepts.
Also - I know this should prob be in the Books section but what do people think of the book by Daniel Duffy "Financial Instrument Pricing Using C++". |
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kr
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my 2c here:
It is really important to choose a piece of the business and focus on that. Choose something that you think is interesting, or something that seems to be in fashion and will land you a well-paid job, I don't care - but choose something. This world does not think like mathematicians and broad generalizations where all derivatives are the same, so the longer you persist in this thinking, the tougher it will be for people to hire you.
Then, if you think you're so smart, you should be able to identify interesting research papers on the bleeding edge of the subject. Maybe even not-so-bleeding. But choose something beyond Hull.
Then, there are a few things that need to be done:
1- understand how the model fits with the market - i.e. what are the tradeables
2- implement the model
3- given the observables, be able to calibrate the model
I think people can provide data if you know what you need, and don't treat your source like a librarian. #1 might ordinarily be the hardest, but you can get an opinion by asking right here on NP. Nero's exactly right, there's never enough time to do these things once you are really full-time, so I'm sure we'd appreciate some willing victims. But playing the motivational speaker sucks, you gotta bring your self-directed ambition to the table. |
my bank got pwnd |
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drews
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| Thanks for advice, kr. What I basically do now is preparing for job interviews (putting my resume, C++ and fin. math in shape). I don't have a sufficient background just yet to be able to choose some particular business and concentrate on it. Moreover I'm not sure whether it'll help me career-wise if it limits the number of positions I can apply to. My plan is to get any appropriate job (bank, hedge fund, whatever I don't care) as my first job and learn as much as I can there in hope I'll get a broader picture later. I remember being a third year undergraduate physics major student and I needed to choose an area to work on (we needed to choose it that early in the eastern european country from where I came) and it was very difficult for me since I didn't see a broad picture. I've chosen probably the most esoteric field possible but looking back I don't regret of it, since at least I had fun for several years but I might have chosen something I wouldn't like. So it's really tough to choose something when you don't actually see the big picture. Is it really that necessary for an entry level job? |
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kr
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It made a difference for me, and in that specific area it will put you miles ahead of other blank-slate candidates. We're talking about your career here, and you shouldn't be holding off on your career research because you are afraid of limiting your options. It could very well be the case that you stay as a generalist, start work in a hedge fund, discover that you are totally uninterested in that line of business, and then feel trapped because your next employer will want you to do what you previously did. So I think it's a big mistake to avoid choosing. I'm not saying you have to completely narrow things down, either, but you should take some steps, try things out, see what you like and what you don't like.
As an interviewer, I have a real problem hiring somebody who just needs a job. There are hordes of people who want to work in this business because they just want to make money. Unless you are a broker, you don't want to hire these people. You need somebody who cares (echo Nero's point below).
If you'd like me to play Devil's Advocate a bit, I will: So you don't care whether you work in a bank or a hedge fund, huh? Very interesting.
But I know you like a challenge. |
my bank got pwnd |
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chiral3
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Ditto that. As an interviewer myself, I want people who want money, and know what they want.
"What do you want to do?"
"I want to be front office FI......"
"How much should you be paid?"
"$180,000 + 60% FLOOR"
"Well, I like you, your resume, but you have no experience, so I can't pay you that much, and you don't know what you are worth yet...."
You think you will have an edge in 3 months of Salvation Army work? No. Take all the advice you have gotten here. The first two years is hard for everyone, get paid for it. The person from the other forum you refer to is very good at getting people interviews. Use him, at the minimum, every person whose resume I have given his has gotten interviews. |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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Martingale
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When I was trying to find my first job, people interviewing me told me" you have a nice background, do you have any experience, like an internship?" which I did not have, and I lost a lot of these opportunities, strange enough, a couple of years before I graduated, I was trying to find an internship, then I got some feedbacks, people are asking" are you interested in full time job instead of internship?" I had to say no.....vicious cycle....  |
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chiral3
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| If I am correct Martingale, the job market was very different when you interviewed. I remember (if I am thinking of the right time) interviewing PhDs with some experience to do God-awful work. Things have improved. |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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Martingale
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| Yes, C3, you're right, I was very screwed up that time since the market was experiencing downtown......when you say awful work, you mean brew coffe or operating a hotdog cart? |
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drews
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I got your point, kr. I should mention that all my career knowledge came from reading W**t, this forum and talking to people (just a disclaimer). |
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chiral3
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"Yes, C3, you're right, I was very screwed up that time since the market was experiencing downtown......when you say awful work, you mean brew coffe or operating a hotdog cart? "
I really didn't agree with this practice. We were interviewing 10 people a week for spreadsheet jockey positions. Very impressive people. The market sucked and it was like here's 110k, ....... so they came to work and, after two weeks they were bored out of their minds. What made it worse was that we had some truly stupid people that had been there for a long time. They were idiots, worked less, and were genuinely mean. So these bored PhDs, MFEs, and MFs would do their work, for a fraction of their pay and bonus and, just because these pricks were mean, they would abuse the new hires because they were smarter than they ever were and they could. You couldn't just quit and get a new job fast. We lost 3-4 people a month, some quit without lining anything up. They couldn't take it.
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What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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Martingale
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| drews, I understand your frustration, Just be patient and persistent and taking what people have suggested here, we're aliens, not like evil civil americans like kr and c3, job will come on one day... |
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chiral3
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| Total Posts: 4345 |
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"drews, I understand your frustration, Just be patient and persistent and taking what people have suggested here, we're aliens, not like evil civil americans like kr and c3, job will come on one day..."
Oh, ok. I see. You think that it is easy for me to interview, huh? When I walk into an interview, with my tall, ripped features (which I can't always hide) and my rugged good looks, that I am not stereotyped? That my ability to articulate, understand, pick apart, and compute doesn't work against me when I deal with an interviewer's pride. You are mistaken, sir. I have the whole world against me as I try to put it in my pocket.  |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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Martingale
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drews
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Thanks Martingale, I don't really feel frustrated just yet since I didn't start my job hunt , but I may in several months . Some people's behavior just didn't seem to be rational to me, that's why I started this thread. How is that thing going you asked me about a couple of months ago? (e-mail me, you still got my e-mail right?)
C3, I didn't exactly get you point, what kind of pride are you talking about? Did somebody give you an attitude during the interview, why? kr, thanks for advice, just wanted to ask do hedge funds actually hire entry level? If I remember it correctly when we were in the train from Boat Basin you told me that your hedge fund doesn't take interns, what about hedge funds in general do they take interns or entry level? |
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Martingale
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| I am still have not done that myself yet( in planning), the company did the labor certificate application, it will take centuries that way...... have you got progress on your part? |
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drews
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I am still have not done that myself yet( in planning), the company did the labor certificate application, it will take centuries that way...... have you got progress on your part?
I expect to hear from them by the end of the summer (so it will have taken them 2 years or more to respond and I applied by myself! in your case it may take much longer  ) so I'm just preparing for a fight | |
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