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drews


Total Posts: 276
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-14 01:01

All right I finally got a job after more than a year of non-stop reading and more than 3 months of job-hunting... It’s a trader’s trainee (junior trader or trader’s assistant, not sure what’s the correct name) role in a small start-up hedge fund. I was looking for a quant job but always wanted to be closer to the business side, so I’m very excited that this opportunity came along…

The pay is lower then for most of the entry level quant jobs (slightly less than $70K) but I really don’t care about that (after being a PhD student for 5 years even that kind of money seems like a lot to me), moreover those guys who run this place are very experienced traders and try to teach me something every time they have a minute. Also they promise to give me some money to trade by the end of this year. So if everything works out as planned, I think it doesn’t get any better Smiley

 Anyway, I know there’re quite a few traders on this forum, so I wanted to ask you guys and everybody else who can give me a useful advice:

1)  can somebody describe me some possible career paths available to me? In a sense let’s say I worked here for several years. How hard will it be for me to find another job in case I loose this one for some reason (it’s always a possibility...). What kind of jobs I will be able to apply to?

2) I’ll probably forget all this stoch. calc, PDEs, SDEs and C++ stuff I was learning for quite awhile. How important is it to continue brushing up on it? I know it’s all used in exotic derivatives trading, but where else?... we seem not use it at all and still get a decent return in our place? How important to be good in C++ if I want to remain in trading?  I learnt it on my own, but since I’ve never programmed for industrial projects and still don’t I won’t be able to compete with those people who use it on an everyday basis if I'm applying for the jobs requiring it

3) If somebody could give me some leads as to what is out there in trading: books, links, etc. I’ll greatly appreciate that

My e-mail is   drewsnpgmailcom


Tony
Banned

Total Posts: 50
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Posted: 2005-02-15 03:19
edit

FDAXHunter
Founding Member

Total Posts: 7526
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-15 06:34

1. You're starting out. You can appply for anything. Heck, you could apply to jobs starting with Asset Management and end with xotic options trading.

2. Use it. Use it every day. Why do you think I hang out on NP? Because here I can answer peoples questions and at the same time repeat my own knowledge. When was the last time I bootstrapped a swap curve by hand or calculated implied correlation for swaptions? Years ago, but thanks to this, the question comes up every now and then and so I get to review my own understanding of things.
Maintaining some exposure to programming is easy. There are all sorts of task in day-to-day trading operations that need automation. You'll be doing some programming, I can guarantee you.

3. Truth is... there aren't any good books about trading. There are some "okay" ones that might shed light on a particular aspect of trading (such as options trading or bonds trading). What Tony pointed out (Market Wizards) gives some insight into how other traders operate. I buy almost every finance related book that comes out and I have to say, there isn't much in my library that I could really recommend for trading per se. Learning by doing is going to get you farther than any book you read.


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu.

Tony
Banned

Total Posts: 50
Joined: Feb 2005
 
Posted: 2005-02-15 06:45

.


FDAXHunter
Founding Member

Total Posts: 7526
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-15 09:18

Let me put it this way: For a beginner, almost everything would be interesting. What you do need to realize is that Mr. Van Tharp cannot trade. Else he would be making money trading and not flogging seminars, books and newsletters.

Those who can't trade, teach.
Those who can't teach, regulate.

(that's one of my favorite quips)

The books worthwhile reading to a trader concern themselves with various techniques and calculations required for trading. No book can really teach you anything with regard to learning how to do a job properly. If you want to become a chemical scientist, it helps greatly to understand principles of chemistry, but no book will be able to instill the curiosity and inquiring nature characteristic of good scientists.
If you want to be a painter, it helps to understand color theory and the different techniques for applying paint to canvas, but no book will get you to develop the creativity and the "feel" for the brush.


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu.

jungle
Chief Rhythm Officer
CSD LLC
Total Posts: 2921
Joined: Jul 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-15 13:37

I’ll probably forget all this stoch. calc, PDEs, SDEs and C++ stuff I was learning for quite awhile. How important is it to continue brushing up on it? I know it’s all used in exotic derivatives trading, but where else?... we seem not use it at all and still get a decent return in our place? How important to be good in C++ if I want to remain in trading?  I learnt it on my own, but since I’ve never programmed for industrial projects and still don’t I won’t be able to compete with those people who use it on an everyday basis if I'm applying for the jobs requiring it

i forgot what i didn't apply!  but it's quite easy to pick things back up.

re: how important it is to brush up on it, depends what you want to do, i guess...but the coding is always going to be useful, like fdax wrote. 

and re: 1)...i don't think you're going to get pigeonholed after one job...i've met a few people who were trader's assistants, one went on to do structured products marketing, one went on to market make...so plenty of scope. 


halph evil like 333

drews


Total Posts: 276
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-16 03:47

Thanks for your insights, guys. In trading everything is new to me. I work in this hedge fund for about 6 weeks, and it seems to me I picked up already the majority of techniques we use for futures trading (I’ll probably try to paper trade just to see how well I understand those techniques). I don’t have time to keep refreshing/improving my math (at least not now), but will definitely try to start doing it sometimes in the future...

Anyway, if anybody could think of any other useful books on trading or provide some other useful info, I’ll be very interested.


IAmEric
Phorgy Phynance
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Total Posts: 2961
Joined: Oct 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-16 04:06
Hi drews,

I think you have a very bright future and don't be silly regarding the math reviews. You studied string theory for %&^$%@%$'s sake, right? Smiley

As far as books are concerned, I was told that I MUST read Natenberg. It is a classic and helped me get my job.

cliffBranch


Total Posts: 1
Joined: Jan 2005
 
Posted: 2005-02-16 05:37
Concur on Natenburg, a good book for the basics;
it helped me get an S&T internship.

filthy


Total Posts: 1024
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-16 17:45
for options please read "option market making" by baird. then you can join me in spreading the word about how this book is much better than natenberg.

"this one goes to eleven"

FDAXHunter
Founding Member

Total Posts: 7526
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-16 17:50
Ditto filthy.

On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu.

IAmEric
Phorgy Phynance
Banned
Total Posts: 2961
Joined: Oct 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-16 17:54
Note: If filthy and FDAXHunter agree on a book recommendation, it goes immediately to Amazon Smiley

jungle
Chief Rhythm Officer
CSD LLC
Total Posts: 2921
Joined: Jul 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-16 18:33
baird is also more concise...and now seems to be easily available again.

halph evil like 333

Tony
Banned

Total Posts: 50
Joined: Feb 2005
 
Posted: 2005-02-17 22:24
.

apine


Total Posts: 958
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-02-17 22:34
i thought baird was excellent, too. i just recently read it. cottle's book is equally good and in the same genre of practical trading. i would recommend both. however, i think that some background on how the models work is still necessary. i think that reading hull or natenberg first is a good idea.

People can't stand two things - randomness and responsibility. -- Art Cashin
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