idrank
|
|
| Total Posts: 95 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
Hey All,
I've been trying to get an interview for some time (~a few months) now without any luck. I see all these ads for quantitative analysts, but they are usually posted by headhunters. Sometimes a headhunter will contact me but they rarely follow up. It gets discouraging when I send out 50 resumes via email and get 4 replies. I'm a recent Ph.D. physics grad. trying to get into the finance business again (I previously worked on the Street for a few years doing software technical support). Is there something I'm not doing right? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
|
"No matter where you go, there you are" -commissioning plaque for the USS Excelsior (Star Trek) |
|
|
 |
lokoloko
|
|
| Total Posts: 43 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
Hi idrank,
I cannot give effective advices because I'm currently undergoing the same struggle, but I have just started seriously mid-June.
I know how pissed off you are, the ratio CV sent/Interview is very low for me too.
Somedays, I feel like dropping everything and taking off for south of France, working 35hrs. at "LaPoste". But, NO!
But with a Phd in Physics, you should be able to find something, I have a MSc and No Experience in Financial markets......maybe Im hoping for something that will never come, but its just that I have this thing stick into my head and cannot get rid of it.
You should try alternative approaches than just replying to job postings.
Where are you based? |
|
|
 |
Romano
|
|
| Total Posts: 11 |
| Joined: Mar 2005 |
| |
|
| 'La poste' as you say has nice funds... |
|
|
|
|
idrank
|
|
| Total Posts: 95 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
Thanks, lokoloko. It gets very frustrating. Perhaps you are correct in that simply emailing CV's is not the best approach. I am based in New York City. I should also add that my graduate work was on doing Monte Carlo simulations, including parallel computing, and that I am a fairly good (I'd say intermediate - advanced) C++ programmer. I currently have a postdoc now, but the pay is, to say the (absolute) very least, paltry. I usually just reply to job postings and I also have my resume posted on sites like 'Monster'; what other means are available? Any suggestions from people who've landed quant jobs; what methods did you use? What methods are you using lokoloko?
Thanks |
"No matter where you go, there you are" -commissioning plaque for the USS Excelsior (Star Trek) |
|
|
moogle
|
|
| Total Posts: 16 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
Hi idrank,
I think a 10% success rate is decent. When I was looking for an internship earlier in the year, I would say I sent out almost 200 resumes, and I heard from about 10(I too did not have any financial exposure then). One thing you could do is to get access to Bloomberg, they have a lot of jobs there. I do not think Monster have that many jobs geared for phds. You might also want to try to get access to the NYU career service website as there are a lot of job postings there. I also have a contact for a pretty reliable HEadhunter. He deals mainly with phds for quant and programming jobs. |
|
|
|
|
IAmEric
|
| Phorgy PhynanceBanned |
| Total Posts: 2961 |
| Joined: Oct 2004 |
| |
|
It will not be easy. You'll need to be creative, but the best way to improve your odds is via networking. It requires a lot more skill and effort than it may seem. Especially if you know no one! But that is not really an excuse. It's your first task to get to know people. Find a way.
If you are really having such a hard time getting an interview, then I would say you are definitely doing something suboptimally. Aesthetics of the resume *glances at omd* could be a factor since that is the first thing people will generally see of you (unless you meet people via networking first!).
When I got laid off from my previous employer, part of the severance package was a series of meetings with a professional career counselor. He gave one bit of advice that really makes sense. Think of job hunting like ice fishing. The fisherman drills a hole in the ice and swarms of fish fight over themselves to get a nibble of bait. You don't want to put yourself in the situation of the fish. You need to find a way to demonstrate that you are special.
I don't have any easy answers. Each situation is different. It is up to you to find a way. All I can say is that if you continue trying to be the fish, you will not have much luck.
The very best training I had for interviewing came when I went through a course on how to give an effective interview. Once you know how to effectively interview someone, you will know how to perform effectively in an interview. The training course I went through was on behavior-based interviewing. I suggest doing some homework on how to interview someone using the behavior based interviewing techniques. This will help focus your own answers to questions during interviews. I know it might sound lame, but it is probably the best advice anyone could give you.
Best of luck!
Eric |
|
|
|
opmtrader
|
| Founding Member |
| Total Posts: 1333 |
| Joined: Mar 2004 |
| |
|
First thing you might want to do is to change your name, unless of course you are celebrating your new found sobriety! (pun)
Jokes aside, many people including myself would envy your education. The difficult thing is that now that you've put so much time and effort into your education you are looking to get the most out of it meaning the best jobs which inherently might be few and far between. IAmEric's advice sounds good. I sent you an email with a resource that might be somewhat useful.
|
|
|
|
|
lokoloko
|
|
| Total Posts: 43 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
Come on, dude, u seem to have a nice CV. Honestly, I look at Monster once a week, like moogol said, jobs there are just irrelevants.
Just keep the jobhunting going and make sure you improved the process. You have no choice! What else are you gonna do? sit and cry? I dont think so. Stay focus, grab the phone or a MD's daughter and do the damn thing.
But again im unemployed, so perhaps im doing something wrong as well.  |
|
|
|
|
My .02 buffalo nickels:
Networking and similar approaches are the KEY, especially if you were in my situation, went to a "state school" in the Midwest and fancied bars and girls (dreaming of another spring break, college girls, on the beach) over studying. But I digress...
During undergrad I had several internships (two banks and energy trading shop) and I obtained all them by contacting decision makers (head of trading, CEO of bank, head of research, etc) directly via snail mail, phone and as a last resort email (too easy to ignore/delete).
Rather than sending them a formal cover letter and resume asking for a job, I sent a letter asking for relevant career advice and expressing an interest in their specialty. Again, no resume, just a few short "bullet points" on my education and work experience (nothing more than landscaping prior to the first internship).
The first time I took this approach I sent ~100 letters over 2-3 weeks and received responses via email/phone from 25. I followed up with the other 75 via telephone, as I had said I would do in the closing of the letter. When it was all said and done I had been in contact with about 40 people and about half of those 40 asked me to send them a resume and they would pass it around both internal and external. From these 20 and their contacts, about half a dozen invited me for an interview and I received a couple offers. The following year same approach, different people, similar results.
Furthermore, I know numerous people who've taken this approach and had similar success, everything from interns to someone with 10 years trading experience. It's not easy but it works.
For what it's worth, the last time I was job hunting someone suggested I pick up a copy of this book. At the time, even after reading the first couple chapters, I thought it was a ridiculous suggestion, but I would definitely recommend it as it's been a good "tool" to use for job hunting, networking and obtaining new clients. |
Even cavemen knew it was a dumb idea to burn your food for fuel. |
|
|
|
idrank
|
|
| Total Posts: 95 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
Thank you all for your suggestions and advice. It seems that I have not been nearly as diligent and resourceful as I had thought. I have renewed confidence and faith! One last question/concern is about schools, which HeatOilTrader touched on. I noticed that most advertisements express interest in someone from a top 5/10 tier (or ivy league) school. Matter of fact, I just spoke with a recruiter and he remarked that my undergraduate schooling was not 'the most spectacular'. I admit it's not Yale or Harvard, but at least it was a good private school (I went to a private school to get my Ph.D. as well). Is this really that important to potential employers? How much does this make a difference in terms of getting offers/interviews?
Thanks |
"No matter where you go, there you are" -commissioning plaque for the USS Excelsior (Star Trek) |
|
|
moogle
|
|
| Total Posts: 16 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
| No matter how much you hate it, I think schools recognition matters. It is much easier for students from ivy league schools to get interviews than the others. But once you get into the industry and worked for quite a while, it starts to play a smaller role to getting jobs. |
|
|
|
|
tabris
|
|
| Total Posts: 1010 |
| Joined: Feb 2005 |
| |
|
| One thing to keep in mind is that you might want to consider second or even lower tier banks. A lot of them are also in need of good quants but they lack the attractiveness of working for the top banks. Their pay might not be as high, but you get the experience and you will learn a lot (all this being that you get to develop more processes because of the lack of quantitative development). You will also get better hours and good exposure/experience to put in your resume. |
Dilbert: Why does it seem as though I am the only honest guy on earth?
Dogbert: Your type tends not to reproduce. |
|
|
drews
|
|
| Total Posts: 276 |
| Joined: Jun 2004 |
| |
|
idrank, 4 out of 50 replies is actually pretty good. I think I e-mailed about 300 resumes to get 3 or 4 replies. One was from my boss to be who was starting out a small buy side shop and posted an ad on Bloomberg (which IMO is much better than any 'job' websites, even though most of the ads there are from HHs as well and there're like 4-5 HH shops who post 80% of ads, there’re occasional real postings). I was looking for a quant role but landed a prop trader job and was very happy about it...
If you live in NYC you can get a free access to Bloomberg in NYPL @ 34th & Madison. Search under JOBS <GO>. I never actually read the text of ads which are like twin brothers, just copied and pasted e-mail addresses they provided and then sent everybody my resume as a BCC. I didn’t try any websites but I believe there’s no reason in looking at them, I've never heard of anybody finding a job this way.
Re: networking. It’s definitely useful but I wouldn’t mix networking with cold calling. I’m yet to hear a ‘happy end’ cold-calling story, but I know that many people do do that. Also I highly doubt in the success of your ‘networking’ in public places like NYU or Columbia seminars. There’re just a couple of people in the room there who are really entitled to make hiring decisions and dozens of hungry students and job-seekers hitting on them. As to the contacting people I’d pick e-mail over the phone any day, just because a person can open and read it whenever he has time, but when you’re calling he may be busy as hell and just tell you to fuck off, which is pretty understandable (but also I was afraid that my thick accent could've started annoying somebody). Moreover, I think it’s easier to talk to somebody who already has a copy of your resume.
HHs you speak to don't like your PhD?!... Politely ask them to go screw themselves and contact 10 other ones. If they don’t respond they’re simply not interested, why bother calling them again if they didn't return your call?! If they smell the money they won't let you go easily, if not they just don't care. I mean they're no different from any other salespeople and there's nothing to blame them for. Maybe you should brush up on your resume or work experience (like get an internship or something). And remember there’s a lot of good advice on this and the other forum (as to W***t look at old posts there, earlier then 2004-05 when trolls gradually took over the Career section there)). I doubt that anybody from this forum will actually help you with your job search (b.t.w. do we actually have any 'happy end' stories besides Eric as to getting a job here?!), but sometimes advice is as useful as actually getting an interview.
Best of luck! |
|
|
|
|
tabris
|
|
| Total Posts: 1010 |
| Joined: Feb 2005 |
| |
|
| I thought there were plenty of happy stories such as DW and Happyas placing people but maybe I was just smoking something... |
Dilbert: Why does it seem as though I am the only honest guy on earth?
Dogbert: Your type tends not to reproduce. |
|
|
Happyas
|
| Certified Headhunter |
| Total Posts: 375 |
| Joined: Dec 2004 |
| |
|
Just the one for me, placed one of the junior guys here at Brevan Howard.
Idrank, must admit am suprised you are finding it so hard, mainly as you have the computational skills in C++ which when I did more junior recruitment was often the big reason people did not get through interviews.
Drop me a mail and I'll give you a list of hiring quants I know in the US, both FO and risk. I don't run searches at junior end (beyond introductions like the above) but am more than happy to give you names to call on advice on what to say....
|
ho hum |
|
|
|
tbretagn
|
|
| Total Posts: 106 |
| Joined: Oct 2004 |
| |
|
And I'm pretty happy being at BH 
<threadjack> Happyas, hope we'll be able to have diner someday (lunch will be hard), but I need to find a flat first thing...
</threadjack> |
Et meme si ce n'est pas vrai, il faut croire en l'histoire ancienne |
|
|
Happyas
|
| Certified Headhunter |
| Total Posts: 375 |
| Joined: Dec 2004 |
| |
|
| We will, when the wife lets me off the leash! |
ho hum |
|
|
|
|
| Hey tbretagn, what are you doing at BH? |
Like... like... catching falling knives in front of a bulldozer. |
|
|
|
Idrank, check your yahoo. |
A song for all of those who shot and missed |
|
|
|
MMopt
|
| Certified Headhunter |
| Total Posts: 60 |
| Joined: Apr 2005 |
| |
|
Placing juniors is tough... I'm not sure of the percentage, but we've placed a few, a good number, but if it was easy, everyone would be doing it...
Don't loose faith, in any industry finding a first job is tough. |
|
|
|
lokoloko
|
|
| Total Posts: 43 |
| Joined: Jun 2005 |
| |
|
Happyas,
Can I drop a mail? |
|
|
|
|
Happyas
|
| Certified Headhunter |
| Total Posts: 375 |
| Joined: Dec 2004 |
| |
|
| Sure thing. As said, its more advice than jobs, but always happy to spread the love. |
ho hum |
|
|
tbretagn
|
|
| Total Posts: 106 |
| Joined: Oct 2004 |
| |
|
Nerotulip: I'm a junior risk analyst. So basically a lot of spreadsheet stuff, checkin' figures.
But I think I'll manage to do some more quant stuff soon. You don't happen to work at BH do you? |
Et meme si ce n'est pas vrai, il faut croire en l'histoire ancienne |
|
|
|
