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jackcosmo
Banned

Total Posts: 9
Joined: Jul 2005
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 17:07

You cannot read two paragraphs by Nassim Taleb without running into something utterly idiotic.  Come to think of it, it's a lot like flipping channels on TV.  Maybe that is why he is so popular.  But I have yet to hear anyone quote anything of substance from Nassim Taleb, other than his life's work that can be compressed into one line, the realization that some successful money managers may simply have gotten lucky.

Here is Nassim's latest nonsense:

"Now, it is trivially easy to measure how much of this excess confidence there is in the human race. You even can do it at the dinner table of the next extended family gathering, if it is sufficiently large. Take room full of people. Randomly pick a number. It could be anything: the proportion of psychopathic stockbrokers in Western Ukraine, the sales of this book during the months with "r" in them, the average IQ score of business book editors (or business writers), the number of lovers of Catherine II of Russia, etc. Ask the members of the audience to each independently estimate a range set in such away that they believe that they have 98% chance of being right, and less than 2% chance of being wrong."

By requesting people put numbers to something they have no idea about, Nassim means to prove that people are over-confident.  They are prone to assigning known distributions to things which are unknown.  But in fact, it is Nassim himself - not a bunch of drunks at a dinner table - who spent the first half of his life imagining he knew the 99% confidence interval.  So he tells the people "Do what I did wrong."  And then, even though the guests may never have done it before or again in their lives (except to be polite and humor their oddball guest), he points at them and says "See, people are stupid!"

Even worse, Nassim has not demonstrated, as varied and contradictory as their answers may be, that any of them are wrong!  We can consider a trivial example to understand Nassim's error. Suppose Nassim is playing no-limit hold'em poker with $5 blinds, no antes, and he raises a million dollars all-in with 23 offsuit.  Nassim's opponent will be 99% confident Nassim has AA, AK, KK, or some hand other than what he has.  Over a lifetime of playing poker, this "over-confident" opponent will be right in this situation 99% of the time.  At the same table, there could be another guy who has met Nassim before, and knows what is going on.  Given his different knowledge, he could give a totally different set of hands from the first opponent - for whom Nassim is a stranger - and also be right.

Each individual may have a 99% chance of being right, if you consider his question to be a member of a class of challenges, where Nassim's is the only one they get wrong.  What time will my husband get home from work?  Between 6:00 and 9:00.  How many days of rain will we get this month?  2 to 20.  How many lovers did Catherine II have?  20-30.  People's lives are designed in such a way, that they are confronted with questions and challenges which they can handle.  In other words, while Nassim has selected a question at random, the questions which people ordinarily choose to face are selected for their ability to answer them.  Except when acting as voters - where they are forced to make decisions involving dynamics where they have no idea what the far-reaching effects will be - people pay a cost for being wrong, in 99.99% of the guesses they make.

What is my chance of getting hit by a car when I look both ways?  I don't think in distributions or apply numbers to things, but I know the chance is low enough - almost nothing!  Nassim could get a chimpanzee to take a piss in a Coke can, and then walk into a room pretending to be drinking from it.  He could then ask people "Give me the list of things which you are 99% confident are in this can."  All he has done, is tricked them into thinking a unique circumstance is an ordinary circumstance, by disguising it as an ordinary circumstance.  Ordinarily, people are not confronted with random questions that have no relevance in their lives.  If this were the case, they would all be dead.  Put differently, Nassim is the black swan at the dinner table.

The only thing Nassim has really discovered, is that situations in life are more varied than people's ability to discriminate between them.  A person used to crossing the street in New York, may instinctively look left when he crosses the street in London, and get hit by a car.  There are innumerable situations where a person thinks he has recognized a situation as something he is experienced with, or imagines his experience is complete.  But such situations are by far the exception, or else we would all be dead.  People's confidence every time they take a step on the sidewalk, is well placed.  To stop walking based on the possibility that you could be dreaming you are walking, and actually be standing on a lightpost, is folly.

For that small handful of pitfalls in life, thankfully we have parents and morals.  We enjoy instructions such as "don't drive over 100 mph," or "don't have screw hookers at the crack house."  Even though never before in our lives have we wrecked a car, or contracted AIDS.  People are not, in fact, disposed to betting their lives on a guess about how many lovers Catherine II had, it has never been a common human weakness.  People's over-confidence, by the very mechanism through which they arrive at confidence, can only be in regard to isolated situations.  There is not a naturally-evolving generalized over-confidence.  There are only contrived situations, which happen once and are very quickly recognized and corrected.  E.g. don't answer dumb questions from Nassim.

As we go through our days, we have no choice but to hope that someone is not setting a trap for us!  And 99% of dinner guests will not be out to prove we are dumb.  99% of guests seek to flatter, or to turn our answer into a funny joke or story of some kind, which is why we play along.  Nassim has not shown that people will not be right, 99% of the time they choose a 99% confidence interval.  He has not even shown that people have a habit of specifying confidence intervals.


FDAXHunter
Founding Member

Total Posts: 7526
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 17:12

But... we knew that already, no?


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu.

James
NP High Priest

Total Posts: 2024
Joined: May 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 17:13

anyone want a link to a soundfile where he makes an ass of himself?

Full warning: you are too busy to listen to this. Reading old trashcan posts is a better use of your time.


Prior to the publication of the Black-Scholes model in 1973, the quest for a valuation formula that would describe option prices reflected one of the most elusive goals in financial economics. Though much work was done in the 1960s, many of the insights and techniques used to solve the problem were presented or anticipated at the beginning of the twentieth century by Louis Bachelier, an obscure French mathematician. These innovations include the first graphical representation of option pricing, a mathematical description of stock prices utilizing Brownian motion and anticipating the efficient market hypothesis, and the first formal option pricing formula.

FDAXHunter
Founding Member

Total Posts: 7526
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 17:14
Does it include the noises of a donkey? I'd be interested then. Otherwise, not really.

On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu.

James
NP High Priest

Total Posts: 2024
Joined: May 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 17:19
No, but now I'm thinking: "hmmmmm mix up a few cocktails, play Taleb wav file. make donkey noises while recording same. hack site. post updated file."

Prior to the publication of the Black-Scholes model in 1973, the quest for a valuation formula that would describe option prices reflected one of the most elusive goals in financial economics. Though much work was done in the 1960s, many of the insights and techniques used to solve the problem were presented or anticipated at the beginning of the twentieth century by Louis Bachelier, an obscure French mathematician. These innovations include the first graphical representation of option pricing, a mathematical description of stock prices utilizing Brownian motion and anticipating the efficient market hypothesis, and the first formal option pricing formula.

filthy


Total Posts: 1024
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 18:28
i REALLY like the new evil james!

"this one goes to eleven"

pj


Total Posts: 2031
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 18:48
Please, James give the link...

Нас ебут, а мы крепнем...

sammus


Total Posts: 142
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 20:45
he is!!!

hit and run

James
NP High Priest

Total Posts: 2024
Joined: May 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-25 22:03
Link.

http://www.ermsymposium.org/erm2005/audio/erm-d/General_Session_2_5-2-05_10-15am.mp3

sorry, the cocktails were not potent enough for me to make donkey/goat noises.

And they were too potent for me to be able to hack anything.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueler?

Prior to the publication of the Black-Scholes model in 1973, the quest for a valuation formula that would describe option prices reflected one of the most elusive goals in financial economics. Though much work was done in the 1960s, many of the insights and techniques used to solve the problem were presented or anticipated at the beginning of the twentieth century by Louis Bachelier, an obscure French mathematician. These innovations include the first graphical representation of option pricing, a mathematical description of stock prices utilizing Brownian motion and anticipating the efficient market hypothesis, and the first formal option pricing formula.

Scotty


Total Posts: 483
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 04:18
OK, so his example may not be the best example.  It doesn't make sense to guesstimate on things where you have no knowledge.  But are you saying that he is wrong in saying that people generally exhibit overconfidence in their estimations of probablilities of uncertain events (where they do have some knowledge or experience)?

James
NP High Priest

Total Posts: 2024
Joined: May 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 10:24
I'm saying that he has been saying the same thing for forever.

plus, he says stock prices are "unbounded" which is not true. Ever since the abolition of joint-stock companies they are bounded at zero.

Prior to the publication of the Black-Scholes model in 1973, the quest for a valuation formula that would describe option prices reflected one of the most elusive goals in financial economics. Though much work was done in the 1960s, many of the insights and techniques used to solve the problem were presented or anticipated at the beginning of the twentieth century by Louis Bachelier, an obscure French mathematician. These innovations include the first graphical representation of option pricing, a mathematical description of stock prices utilizing Brownian motion and anticipating the efficient market hypothesis, and the first formal option pricing formula.

jackcosmo
Banned

Total Posts: 9
Joined: Jul 2005
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 11:07

*****OK, so his example may not be the best example.*****

It's not even the second-best example.  It's not any example, because it does not achieve what it is advertised as achieving, that being the "measurement" of over-confidence in society.

*****It doesn't make sense to guesstimate on things where you have no knowledge.*****

Nobody ever has perfect or unlimited knowledge.  If Nassim is shocking us with the insight that people often act with the possibility of being wrong, then he has given up entirely on money management.

*****But are you saying that he is wrong in saying that people generally exhibit overconfidence in their estimations of probablilities of uncertain events (where they do have some knowledge or experience)?*****

Yes.  One could begin collecting examples of people being "over" or "under" confident, not unlike how one might begin tallying up one's income and expenses for the month.  At various intermediate stages, the total of the tally would exceed or fall short of your actual income.  But in the case of including ever more anecdotes of confidence, you will never have the complete tally.

So attempting to determine whether people's confidence is greater or less than some magical level, by the sampling of evidence, might be futile.  At this point, one might fall back on an analysis of the dynamics which produce expectation in human action.  If you assume the human brain to be a physical device which has evolved over millions of years in a relatively stable environment, you might conjecture that it can't help but have inherited just the right level of confidence.

But this is the sort of approach you would have to take, given examples of both over and under confidence, which collectively just add up to a world of imperfect information.  It is nice, for the sake of philosophizing about probability, to contrive experiments like coin flips which will reveal some "known unknown."  But for a man to run around trumpeting the discovery that natural phenomena aren't actually generated in a lab to manifest the distributions which are used for their analysis, is embarassing.

To one who takes the time Nassim has taken, it should be obvious that the human brain would have to be of infinite size, for every hypothetical unknown to be a "known unknown" like a coin flip.  As one decreases one's control over an experiment - as the environment is less and less contrived to be something knowable, like a set of dice on a craps table - the amount of information one would have to know to conjecture a "distribution" expands to infinity.  If one were to roll rocks picked up off the ground, instead of rolling fair dice, it would simply take a larger memory to know the properties of the rocks.

But does the fact that dice are sometimes loaded, mean a profitable casino is "over-confident" in its knowledge of probabilities?  Certainly not.  Are stockholders wrong to invest in such a casino?  Is civilization imagined, a mirage?

If Nassim has the lesser ambition, of simply illustrating that either A) the securities industry is imperfect, or B) the securities industry is run less perfectly than it might be if there were an unlimited supply of infinitely smart people with perfect and selfless habits, and seamless communication of symmetric information, again his warning is best narrowcast.  Because the set of people who, like Nassim, began with the assumption that something else was true, or began with any assumption, is small.

Can human expectations be refined, and made more accurate?  Yes.  History is a record of society increasing and subdividing our catalog of classified phenomena.  Might this process involve inspired individuals pointing to specific areas where improvement is possible, and enlightening people as to how the improvement can be made?  Of course.  But the fact that improvements can be made, should not be looked upon with any more awe than the fact that an area of wilderness can be cleared, and a farm or dwelling be constructed in its place.

Preaching that the world is imperfect can become frighteningly dull, to the vast majority of people who were never so misguided as to imagine otherwise.


tripitaka


Total Posts: 958
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 11:27

he had an article in the IHT this weekend on humanity's inability to comprehend the risk management of terrorism.

 to be fair to him, he didn't quote any middle eastern mystics, but i did note that in the two line profile of him at the end, he's no longer going as a derivatives trader, rather he was a teacher of RM at some school somewhere.


pj


Total Posts: 2031
Joined: Jun 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 12:13
> was a teacher of RM at some school somewhere.
Do you remeber the precise ashram?

Loose translation of a nice French proverb
"If you do not know yourself, teach the others, if you are incapable
even of that, be a school master"

Нас ебут, а мы крепнем...

jackcosmo
Banned

Total Posts: 9
Joined: Jul 2005
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 12:22

If I were a car dealer, would I give lectures on how people are bad at getting from place to place?  Would I catalog the shortcomings of walking?

No, that's too obvious.  I would have the humility to know I wasn't the first or only person ever to address this need, and I would get on with selling my particular product.

Everybody has a product which can improve the imperfect conditions faced by someone else.  There is the tragic human tendency of hunger, which vendors of hotdogs may philosophize about, but never completely cure.  Everybody insists his product, his restaurant, his method of cooking, his diet advice, is the best.

There are some who insist we are "forgetting the lessons" of 9/11.  There are others who warn that voters are being whipped into an "irrational state of fear."  Still others worry that if security checkpoints discriminate between young moslem men and others, society at large won't be able to discriminate between appropriate and inappropriate occasions for such discrimination.

Several months ago, I saw a poll of security "experts" which combined their answers of the probability of terrorism in the next X number of years.  Interestingly enough, the average of their answers for different intervals fit an elegant distribution, with regard to the passage of time.  But there are plenty of theoretical arguments which could be made against that distribution, or any other.  Because each argument boils down to a choice of what to conjecture, where some desirable data is left out.

To get back to the metaphor, anybody can tour the world lecturing on how hungry we all are, or how shortlived and prone to disease and misfortune.  The more interesting trait might be that people are actually gluttons for such predictions of doom, and for such dwellings on our sinful nature.

It's just a shame to see a once industrious and productive man become consumed with an empty hustle and roadshow, and addicted to what Pink Floyd called "that space-cadet glow."  Nassim had a product in his tail fund.  But it wasn't good enough for him.  What ever happened to the long run, what happened to every day I expect to lose money is a good day?  He is driven mad at having measured up short relative to his own sense of self importance, and to other lesser men such as the Niederhoffers, as his years grow short.

A softhearted man who began his life with a decent run of fair fortune, he has finally bent, and broken.  I suspect the moment he cracked, was when he realized that trend trading had been popular among the polyester-wearing crowd as early as the 1970's.  And he is not a giant or pioneer, but a child in the field, a kindergartner when held alongside men such as Keith Campbell.

Nassim needs to get over it.  Is the adoration of his wife not enough for him?


RFMontraz
NP Italian Stallion

Total Posts: 1887
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 12:24
A very MobPsychoish post though...

Was it worth it?

jungle
Chief Rhythm Officer
CSD LLC
Total Posts: 2921
Joined: Jul 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 12:32

Nassim needs to get over it. 

dude, you need to get over nassim.


"i like to remember things my own way...not necessarily the way they happened."

jackcosmo
Banned

Total Posts: 9
Joined: Jul 2005
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 12:39

*****dude, you need to get over nassim*****

It's men like Nassim who will bankrupt the social-security system.


FDAXHunter
Founding Member

Total Posts: 7526
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 12:43
You need to get over social-security too and start your own piggy bank...

On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu.

jackcosmo
Banned

Total Posts: 9
Joined: Jul 2005
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 13:15

It's a matter of payoff diagrams.  Beyond a certain point, you're no longer saving for your own senile years.  You're drawing attention to yourself, and making yourself a target for some kind of "windfall profit" tax.

Don't accumulate too much decision-making power so far as investments.  For every additional dollar you produce - which doesn't really make much difference to you at that level - you'll have a hundred new people who want to kill you for some random grievance...


InspectorKojak
B.O.F.H.

Total Posts: 957
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 13:22

Don't you still owe me 2 tall lattes?


Don't feed the troll!

AndyM


Total Posts: 2006
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 13:23
My friend, may I suggest you find a more suitable outlet for your spittle-flecked invective...

The invisible hand gave me the finger...

Nonius
Founding Member
Nonius Unbound
Total Posts: 10185
Joined: Mar 2004
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 14:22
Notes from Grandma's basement?

No more Mr. Nice Guy. Angry

HeatOilTrader


Total Posts: 393
Joined: Jan 2005
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 16:18
Jackcosmo, perhaps you'll enjoy his latest op-ed in the NYT. Muahaha...

July 24, 2005
Scaring Us Senseless
By NASSIM NICHOLAS TALEB

Glasgow

I WAS visiting London last Thursday when a second wave of attacks hit the city, just two weeks after the traumatic events of July 7. It is hard to avoid feeling vulnerable to this invisible enemy who does not play by known or explicit rules. Of course, that is precisely the anxiety that terrorists seek to produce. But its opposite - complacency - is not an option.

The truth is that neither human beings nor modern societies are wired to respond rationally to terrorism. Vigilance is easy to muster immediately after an event, but it tends to wane quickly, as the attack vanishes from public discourse. We err twice, first by overreacting right after the disaster, while we are still in shock, and later by under-reacting, when the memory fades and we become so relaxed as to be vulnerable to further attacks.

Terrorism exploits three glitches in human nature, all related to the management and perception of unusual events. The first and key among these has been observed over the last two decades by neurobiologists and behavioral scientists, who have debunked a great fallacy that has marred Western thinking since Aristotle and most acutely since the Enlightenment.

That is to say that as much as we think of ourselves as rational animals, risk avoidance is not governed by reason, cognition or intellect. Rather, it comes chiefly from our emotional system.

Patients with brain lesions that prevent them from registering feelings even when their cognitive and analytical capacities are intact are incapable of effectively getting out of harm's way. It is largely our emotional toolkit, and not what is called "reason," that governs our capacity for self-preservation.

Second, this emotional system can be an extremely naïve statistician, because it was built for a primitive environment with simple dangers. That might work for you the next time you run into a snake or a tiger. But because the emotional system is impressionable and prefers shallow, social and anecdotal information to abstract data, it hinders our ability to cope with the more sophisticated risks that afflict modern life.

For example, the death of an acquaintance in a motorcycle accident would be more likely to deter you from riding a motorcycle than would a dispassionate, and undoubtedly far more representative, statistical analysis of motorcycles' dangers. You might avoid Central Park on the basis of a single comment at a cocktail party, rather than bothering to read the freely available crime statistics that provide a more realistic view of the odds that you will be victimized.

This primacy of the emotions can distort our decision-making. Travelers at airports irrationally tend to agree to pay more for terrorism insurance than they would for general insurance, which includes terrorism coverage. No doubt the word "terrorism" can be specific enough to evoke an emotional reaction, while the general insurance offer wouldn't awaken the travelers' anxieties in the same way.

In the modern age, the news media have the power to amplify such emotional distortions, particularly with their use of images that go directly to the emotional brain.

Consider this: Osama bin Laden continued killing Americans and Western Europeans in the aftermath of Sept. 11, though indirectly. How? A large number of travelers chose to drive rather than fly, and this caused a corresponding rise in casualties from automobile accidents (any time we drive more than 20 miles, our risk of death exceeds that of flying).

Yet these automobile accidents were not news stories - they are a mere number. We have pictures of those killed by bombs, not those killed on the road. As Stalin supposedly said, "One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic."

Our emotional system responds to the concrete and proximate. Based on anecdotal information, it reacts quickly to remote risks, then rapidly forgets. And so the televised images from bombings in London cause the people of Cleveland to be on heightened alert - but as soon as there is a new tragedy, that vigilance is forgotten.

The third human flaw, related to the second, has to do with how we act on our perceptions, and what sorts of behavior we choose to reward. We are moved by sensational images of heroes who leap into action as calamity unfolds before them. But the long, pedestrian slog of prevention is thankless. That is because prevention is nameless and abstract, while a hero's actions are grounded in an easy-to-understand narrative.

How can we act on our knowledge of these human flaws in order to make our society safer?

The audiovisual media, with their ability to push the public's emotional hot buttons, need to play a more responsible role. Of course it is the news media's job to inform the public about the risk and the incidence of terrorism, but they should try to do so without helping terrorists achieve their objective, which is to terrify.

Television images, in all their vividness and specificity, have an extraordinary power to do just that, and to persuade the viewer that a distant risk is clear and present, while a pressing but underreported one is nothing to worry about.

Like pharmaceutical companies, the news media should study the side effects of their product, one of which is the distortion of the viewer's mental risk map. Because of the way the brain is built, images and striking narratives may well be necessary to get our attention. But just as it takes a diamond to cut a diamond, the news industry should find ways to use images and stories to bring us closer to the statistical truth.

Nassim Nicholas Taleb, who teaches risk management at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, is the author of "Fooled by Randomness: The Hidden Role of Chance in Life and the Markets."

Even cavemen knew it was a dumb idea to burn your food for fuel.

jackcosmo
Banned

Total Posts: 9
Joined: Jul 2005
 
Posted: 2005-07-27 18:07

All these years studying the brain, supposedly.  And the best Nassim can come up with is the old saw that "It's not rational - emotions take over!"  If you're going to add to the popular understanding of human behavior, give me any other word - "chemical" for example.  From there maybe you could build up something original.

But has Nassim really never heard the term "rational ignorance?"  Sure, you could read the fine print about motorcycle statistics.  You could also read about radiation from car engines, insurance fraud, or mind-control rays.  Nobody has the time to read all of it.  You need some kind of a sign in your life to know what to pay attention to!

And then he says well, the human brain is primitive, this is why we don't have infinite understanding of everything.  And here I thought I was Einstein.  Just get to the punchline already, say "I recommend everybody learn to play poker to get a realistic understanding of risk," or something.

Oh wait, everybody's doing that anyway...

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