drews
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Compensation packages is a taboo topic. I find it a little ridiculous since the industry is about making money. As one of my former bosses once said:
“I’d really appreciate if you don’t discuss your bonus with other group members. I’ve been on Wall St. for many years and have witnessed that after this kind of conversation one party is inevitably becomes unhappy”.
Well screw that nonsense. If people don’t discuss that (I mean real numbers, not job-board ads), how would they do a price verification of their compensation package?! I’d appreciate if NP members contribute and to start the ball rolling I’ll drop some numbers I believe are true (most of them are for NYC and for the period between 2005 and 2007)
1) start up hedge fund, discretionally trading futures and options. Straight out of school hard science PhD. No programming necessary except for Excel: $60k (base)
2) start up hedge fund. Trading I don’t know what. Not sure how much programming were necessary. Masters in Engineering. No experience. $65k (base)
3) Actuary, big insurance company. Hard science PhD, no experience: $80k (base) + $20 (anticipated bonus)
4) Big buyside institution. Group trading mortgages to hedge their servicing rights. No experience necessary. Average Excel and VBA. Analyst assisting traders and PM’s: $70k (base) + 10k (anticipated bonus)
5) Cash CDO structurer. Average European bank. Analyst straight out of top school with masters degree. 1st year: 75k (base) + 50k (bonus); 2nd year 85k (base) + 100k (bonus); 3rd year 95k (base) + 200k (bonus); 4th year 105k (base) + 250k (bonus)
6) Risk management. Top bank. Hard science PhD with 1 year of experience. Excel and VBA. Base $75k + bonus $25k
7) Top bank. Super smart physics PhD. IT group: 1st year 90k (base), don’t know the bonus. 3rd year 150k total compensation
8) start up hedge fund. Average masters in economics. No programming. 1st year 48k (base). 2nd year 60k base. Low or no bonus |
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jslade
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| Total Posts: 401 |
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Drews:
On 3) I was offered and turned down much more than that, though I fit the description (a couple years pre and post doc experience in "the business world"). The position was more forecasting and reporting than actuary science, but their opening offer was about $50k more than that, and I don't know any actuary math. I have a buddy in that biz who makes less, but he doesn't have my code monkey or stats skills.
On 7) -is it really that bad? I can't imagine trying to live in NYC making only $150k after 3 years of work. I know secretaries with high school educations making that kind of money in NYC.
A more interesting question (since I think most of us n00bs fit it better); how much does someone with a decent amount of programming experience get, fresh out of school or post-doc hard science Ph.D.? Not that it matters; I'd work for subsistance wages if the position was the right one (aka it would be interesting and eventually bring home the bacon without giving me a heart attack).
-jslade |
"Learning, n. The kind of ignorance distinguishing the studious." |
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bsycheng
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| Total Posts: 78 |
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Numbers seem a bit low to me. I have a London perspective though.
Am trying to hire for a role similar to 6 right now, generally need to pay basic above £50k. |
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chiral3
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| Total Posts: 4345 |
| Joined: Mar 2004 |
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LOL - Yeah, Drew, I think that (to paraphrase your ex-boss) you would be rather unhappy if we started this discussion.
For people with 1-5 years in a quant (typical) position: Base will run 60-200. Most don't like to go past the 170-200 range because the bonus is there to measure the merit. Bonus can be (modulo outliers) 50%-200%. So the range of total comp is around 100-600k.
Regardless, your numbers seem low. |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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DrQuant
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Getting data points is hard, but I think the real problem is drawing meaningful conclusions. If I find out some guy on another team in another bank is getting x% more than me, so what? Maybe I'm being underpaid... maybe he's a better quant... maybe he had a stronger bargaining position... or maybe his bank's just making more money.
I'd love to find a way round this problem, but can't see how.
Two related questions which might approach the same issue from a different angle:
Year-on-year % increase: what counts as a poor/average/good % increase (in total comp) at different points in your career?
What they'd pay to keep you: What sort of % increase is "typically" offered to keep someone when they quit? |
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chiral3
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| Joined: Mar 2004 |
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One thing that I have learned and it is the rule: large increases have little to do with talent. They are the result of the combination of two things. 1) Chance favors the prepared mind. 2) Luck/Success favors the bold. Period. |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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drews
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| Total Posts: 276 |
| Joined: Jun 2004 |
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C3, thanks for the insight.
Job market is just another OTC market, but with much worse transparency. So I was entertaining this “price submission” idea, just to do a very basic “risk management” of my career. I think it's useful to have this on NP
Any other “dealers” in this poll? HH's? |
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omd
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| Total Posts: 258 |
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| Numbers are definitely way low. Most quants at my bank earn about $110K as a base in their first year. I am not sure what their bonus would be though. Probably total comp of around $165K sounds right in the first year. A little luck can place you in the right place so that you can earn more your first year though. |
yo |
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| I'd guess that all-in for starting quants (first year) is $65-110k for out-of-college quant positions and $80-160k for PhDs. There's a lot of selection bias in reported salaries, so what is quoted as "average" on the Internet is usually closer to the 80th or 90th percentile. As for average growth rates, 20-25% maybe? There's a lot of variance here. |
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DrTarr
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| Definitely, every time this subject is brought up, I am unhappy! I am just preparing my mind for that one chance. |
The Delux Electric Monk |
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DrQuant
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| Total Posts: 34 |
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Ignorance is bliss. Knowledge is painful but gets you paid better.
How about quotes on a quant with 2-3 years' experience, in London and New York? |
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bsycheng
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| Total Posts: 78 |
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It's quite important to mention asset class, if you have more than a few years experience.
In my experience, Credit derivatives quants with 3yrs+ experience get paid quite a bit more than equity derivatives, cos there are less of them. |
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Bachelier
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| Transparent Doppelgänger |
| Total Posts: 665 |
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IAmEric
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| Phorgy PhynanceBanned |
| Total Posts: 2961 |
| Joined: Oct 2004 |
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Discussing comp is often consider quite taboo (and could be a fire-able offense), but how about the second order? Discussing the fact that we are not to discuss comp? Another relatively new analyst confided in me that they were dinged for discussing comp, but they had another view on the subject, which I thought was quite relevant. They asked, "If we are not allowed to discuss comp, then how are we supposed to know if we are being discriminated against? Sexual and racial discrimination is real and the only way for people in these groups to find out if they are being discriminated against is to discuss compensation with others."
I hadn't thought of that, but I think it is a good point. Is it really legal to fire someone for discussing comp? Particularly if they are concerned about racial, sexual, or any other kind of discrimination? The subject is getting a lot of air time on NPR these days. Recent changes in regulations require any compensation related discrimination suit to be filed within 180 days of it occurring. |
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chiral3
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| Total Posts: 4345 |
| Joined: Mar 2004 |
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If you feel that way it only means that you are being controlled, and that you control nothing. The second you get a bus to drive you will stop asking those kind of questions.
So far as amount of money? Greatest line I ever was told on that is this: The money is there. By definition business grows, so 4% last year has to be 7% this year, and so on. If you aren't seeing the money it is not that it isn't there, it is just that you aren't getting any. |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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Beavis
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| The Excommunicated |
| Total Posts: 910 |
| Joined: Apr 2004 |
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| Trader Monthly did a pretty good comparison of Trading and Structuring jobs across most product lines by position. |
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FDAXHunter
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| Joined: Mar 2004 |
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| Please... Trader Monthly never did anything good. |
On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu. |
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Beavis
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| The Excommunicated |
| Total Posts: 910 |
| Joined: Apr 2004 |
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| maybe i should find a better job then. their salary marks were on point for me anyway |
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chiral3
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| Total Posts: 4345 |
| Joined: Mar 2004 |
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| I admit I get TM. It is like "How to spend it" in the FT - a real wank mag. I guess it is the gossip-like who's who that gets me. I took the time to do their survey last month and all I asked was for more trading related stuff and less on which IWC watch is in. |
What do you mean by **drag** the range"? If you just mean expand the column width, that doesn't work. NUM! |
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uranasss
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| Is TM's corporate sponsor Kraft? Because they are definately the "cheesiest"! |
It all boils down to two things: squeezes and liquidations. |
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KangaXX
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Whats typical % pay out of pnl? For flow, prop (punting, rv, arbitrage) etc given tenure...., and how about sales too
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The source = The regulator of systemic risk |
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Discussing comp is often consider quite taboo (and could be a fire-able offense), but how about the second order? Discussing the fact that we are not to discuss comp?
In the US, it's technically illegal to fire someone for discussing compensation. (So, of course, they're fired for a more vague reason such as "creating an unprofessional environment".)
Few companies have a policy against discussing compensation, and those that do cannot legally enforce them. What's more pressing than any official policy is the social pressure not to discuss such things. It's bizarre that people treat compensation as something to be kept so opaque, but some causes simply aren't worth fighting for... so long as I'm happy with what I make, I don't care what anyone else does, and I'm not going to rock the boat in order to find out. |
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MrBen
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"Whats typical % pay out of pnl?"
As far as I know it generally between 8-10%, can be as high as 12% but you need to be bring capital or business through the door. This topic has been dealt with in a previous thread but I could not find it. |
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KangaXX
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Cheers MrBen, Ive heard that from some people, others more like 5-8%, tho heard of a sales guy getting 25% of soft sales credits (!!!?) |
The source = The regulator of systemic risk |
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FDAXHunter
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| Joined: Mar 2004 |
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| It, like, totally depends what you're doing. |
On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On en tue des millions, on est un conquérant. On les tue tous, on est Dieu. |
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